Author Topic: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that  (Read 6468 times)

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Offline raddison

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Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« on: 06 March 2008, 23:36:40 »
On the questions thread a saying came up

"keep it under your hat"

I know where this came from .... In days of old when archers were all the rage they needed to keep a spare bow string safe and dry so it was stored under their hats ready to use if required.

Do any of the members out there know of other sayings which they know the answer or would like to hear some.
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Offline lava-lamp

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #1 on: 06 March 2008, 23:41:17 »
I see, never knew that.  :hyp:


When I was small, my Gran would always say,  Don`t pull a face, or the wind will change, and your be left with a funny face.

( Or something very simiar)  :ponder:
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Offline raddison

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #2 on: 07 March 2008, 00:02:14 »
saying... "its cold enough to freeze the balls of a brass monkey"



From... Wooden gun ships, canon balls were kept on a brass plate  called a monkey, water freezing on this would lift the balls and they could slide off. :icon_salut:
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Offline PaigntonPearl

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #3 on: 07 March 2008, 00:11:38 »
That's very interesting.  More, more!!!

Offline raddison

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #4 on: 07 March 2008, 00:22:54 »
The "Harvey Smith" two fingers up at an opponent.

Stemed from when the British were at war with the French and any archer caught by the French had the two fingers on the right hand chopped off.
As a goad to the French British archers used to show the French the two fingers by waving them up and down.

Reason for removal of fingers = you need both fingers to loose and arrow from a longbow.
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Offline 99

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #5 on: 07 March 2008, 00:28:10 »
mad as a hatter, ( mad hatter in Alice in wonderland) comes from the use of mercury on the velvet for hats. Mercury builds up in the body and causes mental health problems.
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Offline kevinbythesea

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #6 on: 07 March 2008, 00:46:23 »
saying... "its cold enough to freeze the balls of a brass monkey"

From... Wooden gun ships, canon balls were kept on a brass plate  called a monkey, water freezing on this would lift the balls and they could slide off. :icon_salut:


I always thought that was where the phrase came from until I read this:

Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey

Meaning

Very cold weather conditions. Also known by the derivative phrase - brass monkey weather.

Origin

Some references say that the brass triangles that supported stacks of iron cannon-balls on sailing ships were called monkeys and that in cold weather the metal contracted, causing the balls to fall off. The derivation of this phrase is difficult enough to determine without such tosh, so let's get that oft-repeated story out of the way first:

    Cartoons of pirate ships always come complete with the usual icons - parrots, peg legs and pyramids of cannon-balls. That's artistic license rather than historical fact. The Royal Navy records that, on their ships at least, cannon-balls were stored in planks with circular holes cut into them - not stacked in pyramids. These planks were known as 'shot garlands', not monkeys, and they date back to at least 1769, when they were first referred to in print.

    On dry land, the obvious way to store cannon-balls seems to be by stacking them. On board ship it's a different matter. A little geometry shows that a pyramid of balls will topple over if the base is tilted by more than 30 degrees. This tilting, not to mention any sudden jolting, would have been commonplace on sailing ships. It just isn't plausible that cannon-balls were stacked this way.

    For those wanting a bit more detail, here's the science bit. The coefficient of expansion of brass is 0.000019; that of iron is 0.000012. If the base of the stack were one metre long the drop in temperature needed to make the 'monkey' shrink relative to the balls by just one millimetre, would be around 100 degrees Celsius. Such a small shrinkage wouldn't have had the slightest effect. In any case in weather like that the sailors would probably have better things to think about than coining new phrases.

Another explanation that is given for this phrase is that it originated with the three wise monkeys. The original of these was a set of carved wooden monkeys in the Sacred Stable at Nikko in Japan. In 1896, Robert Hope introduced their meaning to the West in his The Temples & Shrines of Nikko:

    "One group represents three monkeys, one closing its eyes with its hands, this is called Mi-zaru = 'don't see any wrong'; another one closing its ears with its hands, called Kika-zaru = 'don't hear any wrong'; the other one closing its mouth with its hands, called Iwa-zaru = 'don't talk any wrong'."

Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkeyIf you've heard the phrase 'hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil' you are probably familiar with the brass version of these monkey figures, which have used as paperweights since at least the early 20th century. Their introduction to English-speaking countries, and knowledge of the three wise monkeys, come too late for the figures to have been the direct source of this phrase.

Now, back to the real origin of 'cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey'. Anyone looking for the origin of this is likely to be put off the scent by the 'balls' in the phrase. Of course, the way we now understand the phrase is that it is cold enough to freeze one's testicles off (ladies needn't feel left out, they have the alternative 'as cold as a witch's tit in a brass bra'). Once we realize that the phrase is seen in print many times in various forms well before any variant that mentions balls, it becomes clear that trying to explain what balls were being referred to is something of a fool's errand. Were the two explanations above not counted out already we could probably discount them on this count too. There may have been some journalistic coyness about using the current version of the phrase - it is, after all, commonly understood to refer to testicles. That's view is backed up by the fact that there are almost no citations of the balls variant in any US newspaper, even up until the present day. There's no evidence to prove that that variant existed in the 19th century. 'Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey' appears to have originated in the USA in the first part of the 20th century and is clearly based of earlier variants. The earliest citation of that precise phrase that I can find is from as late as 1979 in the biography of Tristan Jones - A Wayward Sailor:

    "A cold fit to freeze the balls of a brass monkey."

There were earlier balls version - Bluestones' The Private World of Cully Powers, 1960 has: "Man, I'm so hungry I could eat the balls off a brass monkey". There's little doubt that the phrase was circulating almost the general public before WWII - some years before it appears in print.

In Arthur Mizener's biography of F. Scott Fitzgerald The Far Side of Paradise, he includes part of a letter written by Fitzgerald's wife Zelda in 1921:

    "This damned place is 18 below zero and I go around thanking God that, anatomically and proverbially speaking, I am safe from the awful fate of the monkey."

The risqué nature of Zelda's life and writing style suggests that she wasn't referring to the monkey's nose, tail or ears.

Later, but still before WWII, Eric Partridge, in A Dictionary of Catchphrases, repeats this report:

    Shortly before WW2, The Crazy Gang at the Palladium played a sketch wearing fur coats, hats, gloves etc. When the brass balls fell from a pawnbroker's sign, one of them exclaimed, "Blimey, I didn't know it was that cold!"

At this point it is probably worth looking at those early citations of the phrase. Interestingly, many early versions refer to heat rather than cold and the first known version of the phrase mentions neither balls nor cold. That is found in Herman Melville's novel Omoo, 1847:

    It was so excessively hot in this still, brooding valley, shut out from the Trades, and only open toward the leeward side of the island, that labor in the sun was out of the question. To use a hyperbolical phrase of Shorty's, "It was 'ot enough to melt the nose h'off a brass monkey."

Other printed mentions of brass monkey that followed a little later in the 19th century are:

    Charles Augustus Abbey, in Before the Mast in the Clippers, 1857: "It would freeze the tail off of a brass monkey."

    John Esten Cooke's The Wearing of the Gray, 1865: 'His measure of cold was, "Cold enough to freeze the brass ears on a tin monkey."'

    An article in the Illinois newspaper The Decatur Republican, 1868: "...every idiotic copperhead editor in the country, who hasn't got as much brains as a brass monkey..."

There are many other hot/cold variants of the phrase in print from the 19th century:

    - less bashful than... (1867)
    - scald the throat of... (1870)
    - talk the leg off... (1872)
    - as cheeky as... (1873)
    - burn the ears off... (1876)
    - had touched the heart of... (1878)
    - singe the hair on... (1879)

All of these combine to suggest that the brass monkey in question wasn't a particular beast or object but merely a synonym for a generalized inanimate object. If that's so then, what was a brass monkey? It may be a reference to the three wise monkeys that pre-dates the 1896 citation above - although that would seem unlikely given the gap in the dates.

The young boys who helped with the loading of cannons on naval ships were called powder monkeys. Other seafaring monkey business relates to ancient forms of cannon called a brass monkeys, or drakes, or dogs. These were recorded in an inventory published in 1650 - The articles of the rendition of Edenburgh-Castle to the Lord Generall Cromwel:

    "Short Brasse Munkeys alias Dogs."

Brass drakes/monkeys were referred to in J. Heath's Flagellum, 1663: "Twenty-eight Brass Drakes called Monkeys" and in The Taking of St. Esprit in Harlech, 1627: "Two drakes upon the half deck, being brass, of sacker bore".

There's also a nautical reference from 1822 for the monkey tail which appears in the earliest known version of the phrase. This was a lever that was used to aim a cannon.

It might sound like the work of CANOE (the Committee to Ascribe a Naval Origin to Everything) but, given these citations and the large percentage of references to brass monkeys in nautical contexts, it seems likely that the inanimate object in question was in fact a naval cannon. The 'balls' are a recent appendage.



Now I am not sure.  :dontknow:

Offline kevinbythesea

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #7 on: 07 March 2008, 00:53:26 »
Three sheets to the wind

Meaning

Very drunk.

Origin

To understand this phrase we need to enter the arcane world of nautical terminology. Sailors' language is, unsurprisingly, all at sea and many supposed derivations have to go by the board. Don't be taken aback to hear that sheets aren't sails, as landlubbers might expect, but ropes (or occasionally, chains). These are fixed to the lower corners of sails, to hold them in place. If three sheets are loose and blowing about in the wind then the sails will flap and the boat will lurch about like a drunken sailor.

The phrase is these days more often given as 'three sheets to the wind', rather than the original 'three sheets in the wind'. The earliest printed citation that I can find is in Pierce Egan's Real Life in London, 1821:

    "Old Wax and Bristles is about three sheets in the wind."

Sailors at that time had a sliding scale of drunkenness; three sheets was the falling over stage; tipsy was just 'one sheet in the wind', or 'a sheet in the wind's eye'. An example appears in the novel The Fisher's Daughter, by Catherine Ward, 1824:

    "Wolf replenished his glass at the request of Mr. Blust, who, instead of being one sheet in the wind, was likely to get to three before he took his departure."

three sheets to the windRobert Louis Stevenson was as instrumental in inventing the imagery of 'yo ho ho and a bottle of rum' piracy as his countryman and contemporary Sir Walter Scott was in inventing the tartan and shortbread 'Bonnie Scotland'. Stevenson used the 'tipsy' version of the phrase in Treasure Island, 1883 - the book that gave us 'X marks the spot', 'shiver me timbers' and the archetypal one-legged, parrot-carrying pirate, Long John Silver. He gave Silver the line:

    "Maybe you think we were all a sheet in the wind's eye. But I'll tell you I was sober; "

Offline lava-lamp

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #8 on: 07 March 2008, 08:25:31 »
Makes you think how we still use these phrases, it is good yah?


Ok I would like to know another gran special, she would say


Cooor lover a duck :ponder: like to know the origin of that one please.  :ponder:
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Offline PaigntonPearl

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #9 on: 07 March 2008, 08:40:07 »
I always liked "colder than a well-digger's arsehole.

No one seems to be able to determine where "Lord, love a duck" came from TM.

Offline Gerry

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #10 on: 07 March 2008, 09:59:39 »
Quote
I always liked "colder than a well-digger's arsehole.

 :laughing4:I've never heard that one before, but they're all priceless and it is interesting to know where they came from.

Most of you'd have heard of the 'Ten Pound Pom' well there are 2 versions that I know, and they are (with different spelling)

POHM = Prisoner Of His Majesty
                  and
POME = Prisoner Of Mother England

 :aus: Gerry

Offline lava-lamp

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #11 on: 07 March 2008, 10:09:38 »
Is that what the Pommies come from? Sounds about right.  :confused2:
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Offline raddison

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #12 on: 07 March 2008, 13:30:41 »

No one seems to be able to determine where "Lord, love a duck" came from TM.


So did the lord go to the duck pond to try his luck?
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Offline kevinbythesea

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #13 on: 07 March 2008, 15:49:23 »
You'll often hear a Brit say "cor"! It is another one of those expressions of surprise that we seem to have so many of. It will sometimes be lengthened to "cor blimey" or "cor love a duck", depending on where you are. "Cor blimey" is a variation of "Gawd Blimey" or "Gor Blimey". They are all a corruption of the oath "God Blind Me". Also used in the form "blimey O'Riley".

Offline kevinbythesea

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #14 on: 07 March 2008, 16:02:39 »
Which is colder, a "witch's tit", a "nun's cunt", or a "well-digger's ass"?



Dr. Reinhold Aman, editor of Maledicta, ranks them (coldest first) as: [1] colder than a well-diggers ass in the Klondike; [2] colder than a witch's tit; and [3] colder than a nun's cunt. Note that Rey adds the Klondike qualifier and points out that this is the true simile.

In the absence of the Klondike qualifier, I offer the following logic: A well-digger is a living human, and therefore subject to the physical laws governing organic matter. A witch is mythical and therefore exempt from physics. The witch wins this round on physics. As demotics, however, they are both equally cold.

Offline raddison

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #15 on: 07 March 2008, 18:41:01 »
Which is colder, a "witch's tit", a "nun's cunt", or a "well-digger's ass"?



 A well-digger is a living human, and therefore subject to the physical laws governing organic matter.
 A witch is mythical and therefore exempt from physics.

Can I ask where do you get these from  :bigsmile:

Oh FYI I have had the pleasure of digging a well.. Again FYI MY ass was NEVER that cold so you could be right.
Ask my Grandchildren and they will say that the wicked witch lives with ME :rofl: Her tit may have a chill to it but that is where I must end having never got close enough to a nun's ???? to find out  :rofl:
I could add it to my list of things to do before I die but the witch may cast a spell on my ass :dunno:
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Offline lava-lamp

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #16 on: 07 March 2008, 18:42:39 »
Who you calling a witch?  :hair:
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Offline raddison

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #17 on: 07 March 2008, 18:54:41 »
Who you calling a witch?  :hair:

Are you trying to confuse me with that question ?

Now you wont cast any spells on me will you?????????? :nail: :rofl:
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Offline lava-lamp

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #18 on: 07 March 2008, 18:58:26 »
Not at moment.  :ponder:
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Offline Gerry

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #19 on: 08 March 2008, 03:16:14 »
I have heard the expression 'Dry as a nuns ####' but never "Cold As"

Another one would be that he/she's 'Tight as a Fishes Arsehole" and that's watertight.

Offline lava-lamp

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #20 on: 08 March 2008, 09:04:21 »
One of my favourites that I do seem to use alot is.....


What`s that got to do with the price of fish?
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Offline Gerry

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #21 on: 08 March 2008, 12:20:13 »
One of my favourites that I do seem to use alot is.....


What`s that got to do with the price of fish?

My wife always used to say that, and I used to say to her "What the hell are you talking about"  I'm afraid I thought it was a stupid saying.  :dontknow:

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Offline raddison

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #22 on: 08 March 2008, 16:10:41 »
This thread is truly bringing the strange stuff out in the open.

I heard this when I first came to live in Suffolk..


     Coo' shit on a stick.          Used when some thing was a suprise.. :rofl:

just why anyone would want shit on a stick always made me ponder.... :glasses1:
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Offline kevinbythesea

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #23 on: 08 March 2008, 20:04:42 »
What's that got to do with the price of fish?" - used when responding to a statement not in line with the general conversation.


Apparently it developed from "What's that got to do with the price of eggs?," U.S. origin, "since the 1920s, if not earlier" (Eric Partridge, "A Dictionary of Catch Phrases American and British," 1985). Another variant Partridge cites is ". . . of tea in China?" I've also heard ". . . of rice in China?"
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Offline Gerry

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #24 on: 08 March 2008, 22:46:56 »
Quote
Coo' shit on a stick.          Used when some thing was a suprise..

I've never heard that one Rad, but the one I use quite a lot, is, "Shit a brick" when something surprises me.

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Offline PaigntonPearl

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #25 on: 09 March 2008, 06:56:15 »
I've only heard of "shitting bricks" as describing something that's very difficult to do.

And I definitely think you should add a nun's **** to your list of things to find out before you die, rad!  :sofa:

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #26 on: 11 March 2008, 12:34:21 »
Here`s another my Gran would say, Somerset  ( Some are set, and some are not?
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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #27 on: 16 August 2009, 01:48:26 »
on a slight tangent, why did your mum tell you not to put your elbows on the table at mealtimes?

In days gone by, a Captain would want staff for his ship, he would raid the local bars, to offer a few coffers for a trip, if he saw a guy with elbows on the table he knew they had been to sea - because when at sea, it is rocky, you held your dinner plate steady between your elbows - stop it sliding away - so it was a dead give-away ! These guys would be the first to be knocked unconscious only to wake finding themselves on a long voyage !

Offline lava-lamp

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #28 on: 20 August 2009, 22:19:53 »
Does Rad hold his plate like that? 
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Offline raddison

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #29 on: 21 August 2009, 18:32:24 »
No!

I tend to hold onto my plate with one hand and use the other for the fork or spoon and if a knife is required then both hands are put into play.

Then I am on a ship that does not venture out in bad weather that much
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Offline Gerry

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #30 on: 22 August 2009, 00:16:17 »
Aye Jim lad, ye can’t call yerself a sailor if ye havna sailed the 7 seas Ahrrrrrrrrrr  :hair:

Offline raddison

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #31 on: 22 August 2009, 00:22:24 »
Sailor me foot!

the nearest I will be to a sailor is if I went and stood next to one........

I'm an engineer!!!!!!!! :bigsmile:
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Offline Gerry

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #32 on: 22 August 2009, 00:51:45 »


I'm an engineer!!!!!!!! :bigsmile:

On a train?  :bigsmile:

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #33 on: 13 September 2009, 04:41:28 »
I heard that "all men shall be sailors then until the sea shall free them".

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #34 on: 13 September 2009, 21:24:09 »
sailor soldier ect I just love men in uniforms especially the navy, ( many happy memories ha) :halo:
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Offline Gerry

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #35 on: 14 September 2009, 02:13:45 »
I think most of us think that the saying "Freeze the balls off a brass monkey" is a vulgar expression, but it's not.



It was necessary to keep a good supply of cannon balls near the cannon on old war ships. But how to prevent them from rolling about the deck was a major problem. The best storage method devised was to stack them as a square based pyramid, with one ball on top, resting on four, resting on nine, which rested on sixteen. Thus, a supply of 30 cannon balls could be stacked in a small area right next to the cannon. There was only one problem -- how to prevent the bottom layer from sliding/rolling from under the others.

 
Answer

 
The solution was a metal plate with 16 round dimples, called, for reasons unknown, a Monkey. But if this plate were made of iron, the iron balls quickly rusted to it. The solution to the rusting problem was to make the plates of brass - hence, Brass Monkeys.

 
Few landlubbers realize that brass contracts more rapidly than iron when chilled.
Consequently, when the temperature dropped too far, the brass indentations would shrink so much that the iron cannon balls would come right off the monkey.


Offline raddison

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #36 on: 14 September 2009, 23:19:12 »
ARE you sure on that Gerry?  :dunno:
I may not be perfect, but being this close to it is spooky

Offline Gerry

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #37 on: 14 September 2009, 23:40:28 »
ARE you sure on that Gerry?  :dunno:

My wisdom is infinite  :showoff:

Offline raddison

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Re: Sayings and the meanings do or did you know that
« Reply #38 on: 15 September 2009, 07:47:37 »
I think that may just be myth  :-\ :dontknow:

but who am I to pour water on your flame  :laughing9:
I may not be perfect, but being this close to it is spooky